I remember the 2000 Election. There were enough votes for Ralph Nader to hand the election to George W. Bush.
I remember the 2016 Election. There were enough votes for Jill Stein to hand the election to Donald Trump.
In 2024 the Green Party is running Cornell West. Let’s not repeat this history, friends
Your vote is not a marriage. You’re not choosing a life partner. It’s a chess move for what’s best for the country and the world.
@georgetakei I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of those votes were in solidly Democratic areas and wouldn't have affected the number of electoral votes.
@BlueGrits @georgetakei look up the final vote in Florida in 2000.
@BlueGrits @georgetakei: I did the mathematics in 2016; there were three states in particular where the votes for the Green Party would have swung the election for Hillary Clinton.
I'm the first person to criticise first-past-the-post and the ridiculous Electoral College, but I think the fact that voters for Jill Stein were in a position to push for an imperfect, but certainly more ideal candidate than Trump makes their votes look all the worse now.
@BlueGrits @georgetakei Stein's vote total in several states was greater than the difference between votes for Trump and Clinton and proved the difference in them.
@BlueGrits Where the majority are is irrelevant. Even setting aside Florida, if only 1/4 of the New Hampshire votes for Nader had gone to Gore instead, he would have won there and Florida would have been moot.
CGP Grey explains in this video:
[Minority Rule: First Past The Post Voting](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo)
@georgetakei@universeodon.com But we desperately need to change our balloting system so that you don't have to choose between "the chess move" and voting for whom you really want.
@zakalwe @georgetakei yes! We need runoff voting so that we can vote for our policies and the best of two evils.
@zakalwe @georgetakei - Perhaps so. But how does putting DJT in office accomplish that?
@MrShoggoth@toot.community @georgetakei@universeodon.com I don't understand the question. The point @georgetakei@universeodon.com is making is to NOT let Trump back in office by NOT splitting our vote. And then after that, we should fix our voting system so that we never again have to make the choice between trying to get what we really want, and avoiding what we most fear.
@zakalwe @georgetakei And once we figure out how to take power away from politicians and the two-headed beast as mere constituents we’ll have just that. Talk about an uphill battle.
And sometimes you have to sacrifice your queen.
@georgetakei
No there were not enough votes for Nader for Gore to lose Florida. The recount showed that Gore won Florida. There were not enough votes on the SCOTUS to allow the recount to continue and the election went to Bush as a result.
@Threadbane @georgetakei I’m not from the US but I always admired the grace Gore showed in conceding to Bush.
@johnhowson @Threadbane @georgetakei I wish he’d shown a bit more bombast and had fought harder to insist that the votes be counted. That was a very bad day for democracy. His graceful exit didn’t really accomplish stability.
@batyalee @johnhowson @georgetakei
He was faced with a problem. Basically, the SCOTUS said it was over, so Gore had no appeal or delay tactic available. The Republicans had slammed the door. The recounts continued on inertia, but they had no legal effect because of Clarence Thomas and his Republican friends.
@Threadbane @batyalee @johnhowson @georgetakei and we've known the courts were stacked against democracy ever since.
@Threadbane @batyalee @johnhowson @georgetakei So to continue the chess analogy, playing the best move is no use if the umpire says "no more moves for you, I decided your opponent will win".
@johnhowson @Threadbane @georgetakei Showing grace in the face of what amounts to a hostile takeover of government against the will of the voters is a mistake we keep making here unfortunately.
@adamfishercox @johnhowson @georgetakei
Ain't dat da troot.
@adamfishercox @johnhowson @Threadbane @georgetakei And consistently giving the election loser the job via a corrupt and vestigial electoral college.
@johnhowson @Threadbane @georgetakei grace in conceding to injustice is an injustice. That plus the pardoning of Nixon just showed Republicans that the establishment of the country and the leadership of the Democratic party were their accomplices and would protect them no matter what in the name of 'bipartisanship'
@Threadbane @georgetakei Without Nader in the race, it would not have been close enough for the Republicans to steal.
Nader took on the role of SPOILER willingly. He wanted the Repubicans to win and the Democratic party to collapse, on the assumption that his "party" would then replace the Democrats. Delusional to put it mildly.
@andytiedye @georgetakei
That's true. The "hanging chads" would have never come into play and the SCOTUS never would have had a chance to steal the election.
@georgetakei Yeah, US election wins and losses are more about gerrymandering and your weird setup than they are about people voting for third parties. The US needs to stop pretending it's a real democracy and people need to stop blaming voters for the results of gerrymandering and stupid electoral colleges until these things are fixed. Bush won because of the electoral college.
*This does not mean voting is useless and I'm not advocating for not voting, just that voting's not enough and the legal fights to protect voting rights are perhaps even more important to make voting more effective.
@fifilamoura @georgetakei Does it even matter that Bush beat Gore? Al Gore promised to do more military interventions than Bush. He said this often. Al Gore called George W. Bush a “wimp” on foreign policy and said we had to be “muscular.”
@psychictides @fifilamoura @georgetakei
That is complete nonsense and flies in the face of Bush's actual record, which included two massive wars and a torture regime. The war which Al Gore publically opposed from day one.
This ahistorical bullshit needs to stop.
@unabogie @fifilamoura @georgetakei Al Gore personally murdered people in Vietnam. I'm not sure why you think he's some pacifist peacenik.
@psychictides @fifilamoura @georgetakei
Gore has said that his other reason for enlisting was that he did not want someone with fewer options than he to go in his place. "that he would have to go as an enlisted man because, he said, 'In Tennessee, that's what most people have to do.' " In addition, Michael Roche, Gore's editor for The Castle Courier, stated that "anybody who knew Al Gore in Vietnam knows he could have sat on his butt and he didn't."[28]"
That monster.
@psychictides @fifilamoura @georgetakei
And:
Gore was stationed with the 20th Engineer Brigade in Biên Hòa and was a **journalist** with The Castle Courier.[34]
@unabogie @fifilamoura @georgetakei You're making excuses for the Vietnam War in the year 2023. Awesome. Thank you, Democrat. I will take this into consideration when you ask for my vote.
@fifilamoura Gerrymandering doesn't affect statewide votes.
@georgetakei Yeah. Either vote for the guy on trial or the guy who should be on trial.
Does your quip refer to Trump & Biden?
I’m aware of the 4 indictments against Trump, having read the grand jury indictments. I’m not aware of any grand juries investigating Biden, let alone charging him.
If you’ve got evidence that a grand jury, you know, ordinary people registered to vote, would find convincing enough to charge Biden, then please, bring it to the appropriate prosecutor.
Otherwise, I’d counsel against this style of quip.
@MarkusDude1000
Perhaps you’ll take some time to read this analysis - I found it enlightening.
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/the-economics-of-rich-men-north-of
I view your toot, with the cartoon, as #propaganda.
@JoeStewart I guess if a cartoon lampoons a conservative, it's opinion, but if it skewers a Democrat it's propaganda. Read the overlong article. Nothing particularly new or compelling (I know the left's positions on welfare, high taxes, and unions). Odd that he characterizes the lyrics as right-wing and then admits he agrees with most of the sentiment.
@MarkusDude1000
You’re placing your cartoon standalone, independent of the thread in which I asked you to charge Biden with proof suitable for a court. IOW, your response to show proof was to double down with slurs.
That’s #propaganda.
Thanks for reading the overlong article. Turnabout is fair play - you offer something reasonable and I’ll read it.
@MarkusDude1000
So you give me an unreliable, right wing political commentary site? Really? Ok. I’ll read it.
Ad Fontes Media rates PJ Media in the Hyper-Partisan Right category of bias and as Unreliable, Problematic in terms of reliability.
@MarkusDude1000
Ok, I read the article. It cites itself, JustTheNews and Fox as it’s sources.
Dude, you had me read #propaganda.
Do better.
@JoeStewart Oh, c'mon! You know Bidenflation has reduced real wages and if it hits white Americans it hits black Americans even harder. Why do you think RCP average of "on track" is 65% in the negative? And spare me the ad fontes b.s. Might as well throw out SPLC disinformation. Seems like the media darlings of the left have to do the retractions. Russia Collusion, anyone? Covid analysis, anyone?
@MarkusDude1000
You persist is deflecting, which is tiresome, truly.
You slander people then pile on slurs and then the, “I’m the victim”. Pulease…..
@JoeStewart Not sure how my stating that the article was just the usual regurgitation of lefty themes. And was self-contradictory. Perhaps the "overlong" was the slur?
@MarkusDude1000
I was responding to your cartoon post - it was simply multiple slurs. I asked you to pony up proof to substantiate the cartoon claims that would stand up in a court of law, otherwise those claims are simply slurs. Hence, #propaganda
@MarkusDude1000 @georgetakei should be on trial for what, exactly? He's not even being investigated.
@georgetakei And, if the third parties were not in the way, we would have had decades of a reasonable administration, fair tax policy, honest federal judges, etc, supported by a majority of the people (and not quash the rights of the minority.) Only a small percentage of voters support R policies, they have to bring haters into the fold to get votes.
@JozefSabol the thing is if Gore won in 2000 or Clinton in 2016 either might have only won one term and a Democrat may not have won in 2008 or 2012.
OTOH perhaps the Republicans evolve into a more reasonable party like they were back in 1976.
@cstefan206 When you say "might have" you mean "possible". I feel that Gore and Clinton winning (the latter did it) a second term would be "probable." Both advocated policies benefitting a majority. Bush was focused on "trickle down", started a $3T war, extractive hydrocarbon based energy policy, etc. T was in it simply to get cash to pay his loans and an inference of being part of foreign quid pro quo, not to mention convicted fraudster. I do not see GOP evolving into anything other than chaos.
After 9/11, I'd say that the war was a bipartisan thing, a “necessity” to prove US superpower status to the world.
Now the details of the adventure were on Bush.
@georgetakei
You do realize that you're blaming fringe elements and at the same time ignoring the main characters, main weaknesses, in the process, repeated multiple times.
Repeated forced marriages are just that. Lesser evils are not good.
@Silversalty @georgetakei Unless you were born before 1979, you've never lived at a time when Democrats had both the White House and a filibuster-proof proof majority in Congress for more than a few months. It's preposterous to argue that Democrats don't do anything when they've never been given the actual power necessary to do it.
If you really want to see what a true Democrat majority might look like nationwide, look at what WA has done since we finally got ours in 2017.
@textualdeviance @Silversalty @georgetakei
Ah, but the US system with differently tuned election systems for all the parts makes it highly unlikely that one party will capture all institutions.
If you want a government that has a working majority in Congress, then the usual way to get this fascinating situation is to elect parliament, and then let parliament install the government in some form. (Most Western democracies do not have a directly elected head of government.)
@yacc143 @textualdeviance @georgetakei
I don't think the original framers thought of political parties and were 'blindsided' by them. It's in the last few decades that the American flaws have been compounded by money, which has corrupted institutions which may have not been perfect but are now totally corrupt. e.g. US SCOTUS.
Repubs are wacky wealth servers and Dems are conniving wealth servers. Political wealth service being the key to an individual good life.
@yacc143 @textualdeviance @georgetakei
I should add, I lived in Canada for a few years and remember the "Just Society" PM imposing War Powers while naming a child "Justin."
@georgetakei In Ireland, instead of a single YES vote, we rank every candidate we approve of. If nobody meets the quorum¹, whoever got the fewest #1 votes has their ballots reassigned to their #2 choices, and so on until somebody meets the quorum.
A side effect is that politics is a lot more civil and less polarised.
¹based on the number of seats in the constituency and the total number of votes cast. In presidential elections, the quorum is half the votes cast.
@georgetakei The upshot is that, if America used this system, Nader's votes would have been assigned to Gore in 2016, and Gore would have been president. Bush **MAY** have gotten more votes total, but more Americans would have preferred Gore to be president.
@Infrapink @georgetakei Personally I favour Approval Voting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approval_voting). Basically you tick every candidate that is acceptable to you, and the candidate that is acceptable to the most people (rather than the favourite of the most people) wins.
@strangetomato @georgetakei Also a good system.
Ranked-choice voting gives more nuance, but approval voting is simpler, and perhaps less hierarchical.
@Infrapink @georgetakei Approve/neutral/disapprove is probably a good compromise. I also like Majority Judgement, which is essentially an extension of that.
Cumulative voting (ala You have ten points to distribute how you wish) also has merit I think.